thanatopsis_awry

You raise some interesting points kydd, though I'm not sure they defend LLLT against the other, more concrete criticisms and studies done to disprove its efficacy for treating MPB. But what you say makes some interesting sense, IMO, and I totally agree that for the continued spirit -- and life -- of man innovation must come before "peer review".

I'm with Aaron that you can get a variety of answers...I was a concealer fiend and researched long and hard into this and never found a totally resolute answer.... Personally, after a week I was using concealers pretty heavily and almost every day -- and I was often sleeping with them in my hair. I ended up in pretty good shape, so the concealer didn't compromise my HT (unless, of course, my growth would be even thicker if I hadn't....) There's so much variability to the unknown of medicine, that to be safe I would simply say to wait as long as you can and use as little as possible and always wash it out prior to sleeping. Either way, I would absolutely do what Jason mentioned and to wait a week+ before considering; after that, I think it's a game of risk tolerance (i.e. you'll likely be fine no matter what, but to be "extra"-sure and seal off any doubt not using them for a couple months is the only sure thing.). Likely, the path decided will closely mimic your personal choices in the bedroom and feelings on the efficacy of birth controls....

I believe Dr's Charles and Siporin feature LLLT at their clinics, so perhaps you could contact them directly as to their pro-laser stance.

Hah, good call Leeson. And good to see you back, alive, and well!

Without getting into the more subjective and up-for-debate things like what doctors may or may not be doing behind closed doors, and how many do this and such, I do agree w/ LMS that a phenomena occurs where patients go into surgery with theirs eyes covered, to varying degrees. This forum and the doctors represented from within represent in a multitude of ways the very best that modern hair transplantation has to offer. At the same time, the solution we seek isn't as simple as logging on, picking one of the most noted doctors, sending in your pics, getting back a graft #, and then going in and expecting to be totally satisfied. Since Bill joined this thread, I'll also say that I think he sets a very reasonable tone whenever he individually talks to people, and that he is extremely careful to not have a patient go in uninformed or with unrealistic expectations. Nonetheless, Bill aside, too often I would have to agree with LMS that there is a subset culture where many are going in -- even if it is to a good clinic -- with a combination of unrealistic expectations and/or not having done exhaustive research. This is still just my opinion, I suppose, but I feel for the former category of people, "TheEmperor" is a fine example. The follow-up question is *why* his expectations were "unrealistic". How much of it was him personally not doing his due diligence, and how much was him being fed a too-rosy picture from his doctor, or not being cautioned enough of potentialities before going in. As for the latter category of person, I think it is when they come to the site, see a few results from....Rahal....sign up for their HT, make a thread saying they researched and are going to Rahal, and then get universal applauding of their decision. And it's a decision that may very well end up being their best one, but this type of patient is primed for a rude awakening more than one who had their cage rattled pre-op and did even a "bit" more research.

Interesting. Any idea how this instrument compares to the one Dr. Feller recently revealed, in terms of similarities and differences in the tool's goal, design, etc. Also, I wonder if Dr. Harris has been using this tool on his FUE cases for some time with grown out results, or if it's an extremely recent innovation; and, what average session size range does Dr. Harris feel comfortable doing(?)

Brand, one thing, which speaks to the good point you bring up about *how* on earth could Armani be bad yet still perform so many surgeries.... It's really not unlike other hacks and butchers screwing people, yet still performing surgeries on a consistent basis. Some of the mos frequented practices are that of hacks -- Bosley, MHR, et. al. Bosley and MHR have elaborate marketing -- read: deception -- to combat this, and always keep them with a new influx of....well, ignorant victims. Armani does the same, except his level of scum goes to a new level of deception given he *had* a reasonable record of performing quality HT's with strip. He took a gamble on FUE, and it scored for him beautifully with his marketing campaign -- with his prices, and the outrageous # of HTs being performed under his lil empire at its peak, he has already made insane bank, possibly on an unprecedented level. Hair restoration is a sordid and difficult industry. The people looking to get HTs are generally in a frenzied, panic-ridden, desperate states. Armani obviously understands this. He sold a beautiful bill of goods, while some had the honesty and foresight to call him out on how outrageously illogical and suspicious his practice was. Now that the results have begun to seep through they are almost unanimously horrible. Every single Armani FUE case that I have seen with basic, clear documentation has been epic-fail. **I have never seen as poor a track record in % of epic-fails for any surgeon performing FUE or FUT than I have for Armani** And, it is a *fact* that he was paying off patients to only post positive things *and* that he had insane, threatening (bullshit) legal documents that threatened patients with lawsuits. Make no mistake about it -- since Armani's results invariably *had* to begin leaking through by non-paid posters, they have been *heinous*. What I do know is that he is an unskilled swine with a heartless ability to run an incredibly slick campaign in a murky industry. If you're serious, and I'm not saying you aren't, run searches on Armani on this site and on HairLossHelp. All the information you need is there to make a judgment call one way or another.

FUE yield has certainly risen in the hands of a select few. Dr. Feller's recent instrument is certainly a major player in the developments that have led to increased yield across the board. It def is harder to find FUE results, especially from doctors that don't specialize. However, I know Spex/Feller has posted several lengthy montages and listings of their FUE; you might want to contact Spex directly to find out more if you can't easily find the threads. I would directly contact all of the FUE clinics you are considering and have them get back to you with whatever they have.

I think extensions or simply cutting your hair even and letting it grow again is your move. Just don't allow your luscious, flowing lion's mane to become *too* thick and get matted again. This isn't exactly the hair restoration dilemma we're used to seeing...

Brand, I went to Feller and got strip done....anyways, speaking of donor, Armani and his shills used to flood forums telling kids that they had 15k donors, to soothe concerns raised over the outrageous graft estimations they were handing out. This is and was obviously not true. You usually will have 6-7k grafts available, but it's totally variable. Many get close to 10k, but 10k and above is rarefied air. 5k and below is fairly poor. If you are really keen on megamegasession FUE, I'll again recommend Bisanga and HDC Cyprus -- they are the *only* clinics I have *ever* seen perform true, megasession FUE with consistency, transparency, and, above all else, results. Outside of FUE, there are various very fine surgeons -- Rahal (who is kind of like an ethical, skilled version of Armani), Shapiro, Feller, Hasson+Wong....Feller and Shapiro do FUE, too, FWIW, and Feller has tons of excellent FUE history. And FUE and FUT/FUSS/strip is basically all there is....other than subsets of FUE, like BodyHairTransplants. EDIT -- also, no joke, every forum I have ever been on that has allowed basic free speech....Armani has had an insanely sordid and dirty history....HairLossHelp is a perfect example -- even though it was overrun by Armani shills and cheerleaders, over time the truth does find a way to leak through....unfortunately, it is then too late for those who went under his knife....if you're nonetheless keen on Armani do a consult with him and compare your consult, pound4pound, with that of Feller, Bisanga, Hasson, Shapiro, etc.

Very nice post; and that work looks truly beautiful!

It really isn't an issue of FUE vs. strip. The crux is that his yield is *horrible*. His -- read: your -- grafts will not grow. And the implications of this -- along with low hairlines are disastrous. The grafts are being destroyed during the extraction process, which is an *extremely* delicate process in FUE, by way of his mysterious powertool that nobody knows an iota about. Prior to the waterfall of complaints, heinous results, and lies stemming from his clinic that began to gush foth, I (and others) were skeptical of his claims, which essentially would be *revolutionizing* FUE in a way that seemed logically impossible, and which Armani & Co. had no answers for other than smoke and mirrors and cheap tricks taken out of a politician's handbook. Over time, people like myself and, above maybe all else, LMS, fought untold rounds with Armani's shills, principally on the forum HairLossHelp as the site's owner allowed his domain to be a playground for blatent shills. As the *actual* results -- not hype, not doctored clinic photos -- but *actual* clear results with *actual* documentation came in (and I can't express how key good, clear, transparent documentation is in evaluating the actual quality of a result), the results were disastrous; people magically began to disappear and not reveal their final outcome; threads vanished; threads became locked....this was on HairLossHelp, where you can now not even mention the word "Armani", truly. You might still be able to find threads on that site that are pertinent....either way, run a search for Armani on this site -- there are some *excellent* threads where I and others have responded in detail to your very query. There are like 3 (recent) blogs on this site of pissed Armani patients, and I've personally spoken with *many* more....young guys whose lives have been f'd to the max in some really twisted ways. Look, I consulted with Armani, I wanted to go to him. And I would love for you to go to him and get that scarless FUE session of whatever size and densepack the living hell out of your hairline. But I would bet my bankroll that you will be getting sold a bill of goods. I'm not against FUE, I'm not against bold hairlines, and I'm not against densepacking. If anything, my "reputation" is that of being very aggressive in terms of transplants. I don't want to sound like a dick, but I've talked directly with so many people in your exact shoes and sharing your exact sentiments and taken hours upon hours of doing research for them...combing through this site and others and finding the threads and linking them to the pieces. I'm going to make a thread in the coming days/week that I intend to be my manifesto on all-things Armani. I'd been thinking about doing it for some time for this precise reason. Regardless, please research this site and HairLossHelp on Armani. If you have any questions or doubts about a particular thread or a particular result, I'll give you my 100% honest and unbiased advice. And if you are truly itching for megamega-session FUE I'd make a beeline to Bisanga and HDC Cyprus....they do what Armani does; except they actually have skills, results, and class. Both those clinics aren't even associated with this site, fwiw, so this truly isn't an issue of playing favorites in any way.

I can't comment much on that; other than that, at the time, it appeared he was doing quality work, which is why this site selected him into the Coalition. However, over time, it became apparent to me that he had major problems with some extremely poor, and rather frequent, cases; and the way he handled them was very disturbing. I suspect that's what ultimately led to Pat and Bill and this site rescinding Epstein's affiliation; and that they couldn't in good conscience continue to support him in that way of Coalition status. Do some searches on Epstein and they will pop up...one was an Irish guy, another was poster Wanthairs...and there were a few more who came to light all in a matter of months. Re: consults...regardless, your doctor will be evaluating you in person *before* he touches you scalp. It's best, IMO, to do a live consult prior to deciding upon a surgeon, but I don't believe it is totally necessary with how good online consults can be, and the transparency some clinics put out there for us to research.

I think he accidentally disallowed comments. He started another thread, though, where you can -- pretty sure I posted something.

You're either a shill or incredibly naive (like most of Armani's past victims). And no1 who has posted in this thread as far as I know works for anyone; I wonder if you yourself share this trait or you simply fall into the latter category above. And nobody that I can see has been demanding anyone go to anyone -- except to not go to Armani and be butchered. And the issue isn't low hairlines or high density, obv. And it does suck that chanyouzhe had a bad result. You know what sucks even more? The countless other victims of Armani who I've personally talked to and personally seen on forums over the years. The writing is on the wall; on this forum, and every other forum that Armani doesn't run, or has had put on lockdown. If you're not a shill, run searches on all thing Armani...here, anywhere that allows freedom of speech. If you still want to go to Armani after doing your due diligence god bless and good luck. Also, you're right that the evidence of suing and threatening patients who talk about being butchered would be hard to cover-up. That's why it's already been uncovered and actual legal documents showing as much have been found, verified, and shown on this and other forums.

Armani is a 21st century butcher. If Armani was just lowering hairlines and densepacking (lol...) on young guys I'd appoint him to sainthood of the follicle. I might even go to him. Yet, Armani's legacy is *not* doing this..... What he *is* doing, however, is magnified by these comical surgical prognoses of his: Armani takes power-tools to your donor while destroying untold amounts of priceless donor while you pay a premium for this and the heinous yield on your grafts. The words "densepack" and "Armani" are a twisted oxymoron, and "densepack" is the (hollow) codeword that he to this day makes him his bread n' butter by seducing young kids who want it all and think they will be getting it. Make no mistake about it, however, you would get more lush locks gluing strands from Troll dolls to your head than by getting an Armani "densepack". Armani does what he does because he lacks the skills, talent, and professionalism to do otherwise. This alone would be bad enough to make him a 21st century butcher. His cherry on top is to leave you with the remnants of a poor, low hairline; low enough and noticeable enough that along with your now decimated donor, you're stuck in a futile pursuit of trying to play catch-up if you can even afford to do so. And over the backdrop of what invariably will be your extraordinarily depressed, angry and confused state, will be a nice harem of Armani shills and legal scum being thrown at you.

Do you have any pre-op pics? It's impossible to say much if anything without. Glad you weren't butchered, though; hopefully, anyone who goes to them can be as fortunate.

Excellent turn-around; I hope you gave Baldness a kick in the ass on his way out!

Insane to me, but to each his own. Not sure if it was this dude or another patient, but Eppy posted a similar case where he created a Persian rug on a guy's chest. Epstein seems to do a lot of aberrant cases.....chest hair transplants, transsexuals, etc....who knows, though, maybe he just preferred the results of those.

Hair, I'd recco just doing online consults with docs you are keen on. Many, including H+W, are well-versed in doing it under this protocol. If you are by Portland/Seattle, however, I'm sure there could be some real benefit of paying a visit if convenient.

This is precisely why people took it upon themselves to be a pitbull on Armani for so many years, dealing with the shills and, above all else, the naive moderates that labeled them crazy and untactful. Just imagine the untold number Armani's victims. When people like this pop up it really begins to touch upon just how much of a wrecking ball his clinic is. The damage he has done to people's lives is unquantifiable. C, I would do has RonJ and others have suggested. Depending on what the $ means to you, you could pursue a lawsuit and settlement -- I can imagine how difficult such an endeavor can be for one in your position, and I'm sure Armani knows this, too....only you can evaluate that. Nonetheless, I would strongly encourage you investigate a repair, which can do wonders. Wanthairs, who went to Hasson+Wong, is an example, and there are countless others.

Hopefully. And I guess there's reason to believe this might be sorted out within 20 (10?) years...but there really hasn't been a breakthrough, or even the true seeds of one. There's promising logic and experimentation, but I feel like we get fed a lot of smoke and mirrors on this stuff and the scientists are in fact in the dark, as we are. It's just as, if not more likely that our breakthrough comes from a totally unexpected and serendipitous avenue -- and you can't really put a time frame on that, other than saying that it will eventually come. Anyways, I only mentioned "decades" as an arbitrary number, and I probably shouldn't have even said that -- regardless of what number gets plugged in I think the benefit of FUE is greatly increased the more likely and longer you go without switching over to strip.

Honestly, it really just depends on who you go to. An ~1800 FUE session may or may not be effective based upon *who* you are actually going to -- some FUE docs are simply unreliable and shouldn't be gone to for any #, some are reliable but aren't willing or capable of realistically achieving the graft number you want, etc. You're only 26, and a NW3. I would plan as if you are going to lose more; thus, you will require at least another FUE session. Are you prepared to financially commit to this? If so, great. Question 2 is an interesting one. It certainly seems that FUE produces more trauma, and even scarring, to your donor; whether going about FUE right now could hinder your ability to *max* out your donor later on, I'm not sure, and I've heard different things. I do feel that going the route of strip, and then finishing yourself off with FUE is the best to max out your donor. Also, going back to what I mentioned before about committing to future procedures -- I also meant a commitment to FUE. The benefits as I see them of going FUE to begin with are only maximized if you don't plan on doing strip anytime soon (decades). One final thing...1800 is a good number for FUE, but especially for a hairline case you *really* want to get the right # of hair transplanted. I haven't seen your pics, but I would want to be absolutely sure 1800 would be a perfect number for satisfying me, particularly has your yield may very well be a bit lower with FUE vs. strip.

I've never heard of him, which is something of a red-flag. Hopefully, others can comment + or - on him. But, to be frank, not finding much negative -- or positive -- to say about a clinic is a pretty huge negative in and of itself. You want reliability and consistency of excellence with a clinic possessing a strong, transparent background. FUE is also such a delicate procedure, which has a lot of cool attributes to it, but as a result has garnered a lot of attention from hacks and greedy doctors who hawk it while having little clue what they're doing (other than pillaging patients' donors and wallets). I would still say to continue looking into Dr. Manzanares, but I would *strongly* encourage you also look into: Feller, R. Shapiro, Bisanga, Devroye. You should have a simple road investigating into their methods, trackrecord, and results, while being treated professionally and honestly.

Well, yes and no. Yes, you do have to contend with scalp laxity with strip -- basically in regard to how many grafts can get harvested in a session. This laxity issue is not present in this way w/ FUE. However, you can *still* get more grafts in a single strip session, laxity or no laxity, at least in regard to yourself as a virgin scalp. As such, an aggressive way to go about harvesting your donor might be to go the route of strip -- strip yourself out -- and then move on to FUE which has greater flexibilities in where you can harvest from. If you need ~5k grafts, I truly wouldn't go the route of FUE. Even *good* FUE is still far more variable in regard to yield/outcome than strip; and personally, I think limiting the # of times you need to go the route of FUE is safest. You'd be needing 3 sessions of FUE just to begin approximating that 5k number. With the right doc, the right scalp (and taking it upon yourself to do "scalp exercises") that 5k number may very well be met in one session; and, if not one, then assuredly in two, and after one you will have a very nice cosmetic change.