Questions/Explanations/Answers to thread: "RESEARCH ON UK BASED SURGEONS"...

[notgoing2gobald]

I love this forum.

As a matter of fact, it is the ONLY balding-blog I spend ANY time on.

Mention that not as a discredit to any other balding-blog, but because of the amount of time I have invested here and (cyber-space) relationships that have been developed here.

 

Im not looking to kindle ANY flames or rub ANYONE the wrong way, further with this being such a HOT topic, Im not looking to get banned or suspended from this site either.

 

I think moderating ANY forum would prove to be a difficult task, let alone a bunch of BALDING CHROME DOME BA$TARDS

and I think Bill & Pat do a tremendous and commendable job in their efforts on this site.

 

That being said, I don't understand why legitimate pictures, produced by a (former poster "frog") of ACTUAL patients of the Farjo clinic were deleted from that particular thread?

If they were indeed LEGIT pictures of ACTUAL patients of FARJO, then why the delete?

 

The only explanation (previously) given was that Frog had an agenda up his sleeve. Im not going to comment either way on that point as I have no familiarity with Frog and ANY of his postings WHATSOEVER...

 

But, in all honesty, the little that I do know about the thread above rubs my balding noggin' the wrong way. It gives the APPEARANCE that negative views/opinions of a coalition doc are not welcome on this forum.

 

I would understand if the pics are not legit but if they are, what gives?

 

Also, if ANYONE comes to the forum with an agenda I think forum members should be granted and perceived as having the intelligence to perceive it for what it is and make their own judgement call...

 

Even Alvi Shills are welcome and we all entertain them.

Anyone have any thoughts?....

[notgoing2gobald]

I love this forum.

As a matter of fact, it is the ONLY balding-blog I spend ANY time on.

Mention that not as a discredit to any other balding-blog, but because of the amount of time I have invested here and (cyber-space) relationships that have been developed here.

 

Im not looking to kindle ANY flames or rub ANYONE the wrong way, further with this being such a HOT topic, Im not looking to get banned or suspended from this site either.

 

I think moderating ANY forum would prove to be a difficult task, let alone a bunch of BALDING CHROME DOME BA$TARDS

and I think Bill & Pat do a tremendous and commendable job in their efforts on this site.

 

That being said, I don't understand why legitimate pictures, produced by a (former poster "frog") of ACTUAL patients of the Farjo clinic were deleted from that particular thread?

If they were indeed LEGIT pictures of ACTUAL patients of FARJO, then why the delete?

 

The only explanation (previously) given was that Frog had an agenda up his sleeve. Im not going to comment either way on that point as I have no familiarity with Frog and ANY of his postings WHATSOEVER...

 

But, in all honesty, the little that I do know about the thread above rubs my balding noggin' the wrong way. It gives the APPEARANCE that negative views/opinions of a coalition doc are not welcome on this forum.

 

I would understand if the pics are not legit but if they are, what gives?

 

Also, if ANYONE comes to the forum with an agenda I think forum members should be granted and perceived as having the intelligence to perceive it for what it is and make their own judgement call...

 

Even Alvi Shills are welcome and we all entertain them.

Anyone have any thoughts?....

[thanatopsis_awry]

I'm in pretty much agreement. I agree that Bill (and Pat, as the creator and mastermind) have done an excellent job with the site, and as a moderator he walks the tightrope of being a moderator, while erring on the side of patients' true, best interests....I think Bill's stance on Armani is a perfect example of this; and, no doubt, I would have to assume that if Bill (and Pat) wanted, they could have pat Armani on the back, feature him on the site, and soak in the traffic and $ that would ensue.

 

That having been said, I too was puzzled to see a series of posts (by Frog, Janna, Chucky, Bill himself), that I browsed through this morning (apparently) get censored. To be honest, I don't actually remember the cases that Frog was linking/pointing to, or what point Janna was defending him on -- just that it seemed he and Balody were having a bit of spat over Frog's posting various Farjo patients that he felt to be questionable; perhaps it is because I don't remember the specifics, and was not (am not..) able to form an opinion over the information, that I feel so curious towards the thread, and what Frog -- and Janna -- were pointing towards.

 

Just my 2cents.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dear Forum Members,

 

Running an open discussion forum that is both fair to patients and physicians isn't always easy. Decisions sometimes are made that not everyone is going to agree with. I trust after reading this, everyone will at least understand the reason for our actions even if you don't necessarily agree with them. Pat and I did make this decision together.

 

First I want to say that legitimate concerns and questions are always encouraged to be posted on this forum and SHOULD and WILL be addressed. In fact, patient feedback is taken very seriously and has resulted in the removal of recommended and Coalition physicians from the Hair Transplant Network.

 

For a few examples of this, see:

 

Dr. Martinick's removal after patient posted less than impressive immediately postoperative photos

 

Removal of Dr. Katz and other physicians for either not providing sufficient evidence or for no longer meeting our high membership standards

 

But there is a clear difference between posting legitimate questions and agenda driven posts to discredit someone.

 

Frog took a thread where a new member was looking for real advice about reputable surgeons and used it to drudge up old, previously addressed topics and used it to drive his agenda to discredit the Farjo clinic with speculative and libelous information.

 

Frog was previously warned publicly and privately (many times I might add) not to make libelous statements. Using somebody else's thread as a means to slam a clinic (or patient) with malicious and unfounded information (which was all previously addressed on other threads) is not appropriate regardless of who was being targeted.

 

I have also been accused by Frog and a few other members of heavily defending the Farjo clinic. This is true. Why?

 

Because there is seemingly a dogma that one must fly from the UK to the US in order to get a quality hair transplant. Those who sell this dogma while ignoring the current evidence before them must be challenged. If the issue wasn't so serious, it would almost be comical all of the UK doctor bashing threads you will find over at Stop Hair Loss Now.

 

While I understand why this dogma developed (based on history), one can't ignore the current evidence (including Pat's traveling all around the world to visit and review these clinics and meet their patients) that some (including the Farjo clinic) have come a long way in adapting to the latest techniques. See Pat's visitiation and detailed review of the Farjo clinic with pictures here.

 

I do agree that the majority of the top hair transplant clinics in the world are in the US and Canada, however, there are a few gems in Europe that produce quality results today and shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

 

When Frog (and others) posed legitimate concerns and questions to Mick, I sided with them and encouraged Mick to address these issues. But defammatory statements are inappropriate and will not tolerated on our online hair transplant community. This is why all of Frog's posts on that particular thread were removed. All replies to Frog's posts were also removed as they were no longer sensical nor applicable to the purpose of the thread.

 

Is there a legitimate concern about Shaun Williamson's hair transplant? Even though his surgery was performed in 2004, I can certainly understand why people are asking questions. But if you want real answers, contact Shaun or the Farjo Clinic instead of drawing speculative conclusions. Long time members know that when a patient posts a negative experience, it is taken very seriously. Pat and I will evaluate their case, get the physician's input and draw a conclusion based on all the evidence regarding whether or not they should continue to be recommended. But obtaining all of the information is the only way to draw a proper conclusion.

 

Those who have been members of this forum for a long time know that censorship is not something we regularly practice here. This is a patient driven community and your voice is crucial! Let legitmate concerns, questions, and experiences be heard all over the world! But just as sometimes weeds need to be plucked from the garden in order to keep it growing, agenda driven posters must not be allowed to poison the well.

 

Thank you for your understanding on this matter.

 

Onwards and Upwards,

 

Bill

[notgoing2gobald]

Bill,

 

thank you for directly responding to this. Im in NO way intending to fan the flames (by either my initial post or in this response)

-BUT-

having said that:

"Is there a legitimate concern about Shaun Williamson's hair transplant? Even though his surgery was performed in 2004, I can certainly understand why people are asking questions."

---Bill

THAT is precisely the case in point which motivated my concern over the original thread.

I have NEVER seen a patient who has had a ht and ended up losing ALL of their transplanted hair. While although this was done four years ago, certainly ht's had evolved into what is commonly termed as "ultra refined follicular transplantation" on this site by 2004 let alone a barbaric result.

There is only one other case I know of (who is a forum member on here) that had to endure going through (several) ht's to end up losing all of his grafts.

I personally don't know much about the Farjo clinic. So I haven't formed an opinion either way. It was just disturbing to see pictures such as the case mentioned and then have them deleted.

At the very *LEAST* I would encourage the Farjo clinic to make a public statement about that particular case and all cases that were brought to the attention of this forum by Frog.

I'm in no way calling on you to defend the Farjo clinic; that is NOT your job. The forum provides an environment for BOTH patients/prospective patients AND ht clinics to voice their opinion and prove their work with photos and documented cases.

 

I would *REALLY* appreciate an explanation from the Farjo clinic regarding those cases.

Even if they merely made a mistake that they learned from; then their honesty and forthcomingness in the matter would be viewed with respect. I have heard of other top notch doc's who had complaints against them. The doctors come on the forum and explain publicly that they made a poor judgement call and should NOT have performed surgery on that particular individual. To me this speaks volumes.

[Bill - Seemiller]

notgoing2gobald,

 

I know you have the interest of the patient community at heart by your posts and appreciate your concerns.

 

Understand that the only way to gain a true understanding of Shaun's result is to discuss this with Shaun and the Farjo clinic.

 

There was a thread some time ago about Shaun Williamson and frankly, that too became on the inappropriate side because of all speculation when indeed nobody bothered to contact the Farjo clinic or Shaun directly about this. However, the thread went on and everyone said their piece. Pictures were posted all over the thread and it has not been deleted.

 

Even now, you are drawing some conclusions that we just don't know is true. Do we really know that Shaun lost all his transplanted hair? Have you asked Shaun or the Farjo clinic? What we do know is that pictures Frog posted did not look nearly as good as the photos on Farjo's website. Why? We can only speculate with the current data.

 

At the very *LEAST* I would encourage the Farjo clinic to make a public statement about that particular case and all cases that were brought to the attention of this forum by Frog.

 

All legitimate questions posed by Frog were addressed on other threads and there is no reason to address them again. Use the "find" feature and read all of the posts to draw your own conclusions. If you want to know about Shaun, send Mick a private message and I'm sure he'll respond to you. Understand that their hands may be tied as to what they can discuss without Shaun's consent. After all, the patient himself has not shared a public concern and the patient has rights!

 

Thanks for understanding,

 

Bill

[balody]

"the patient himself has not shared a public concern"

this is why i have such a problem with the whole"bazza bad ht"thing.shaun does not post on here so therefor we have not got a clue about his circumstances.we dont know when that photo with the girl was taken,he had a goatee beard which i havent seen him sport since the farjo web pics,for all we know it was taken shortly after one of his ht,s.mick or the farjos are not, (no matter how much we ask) going to comment on here about his details.if he was a member of this community and gave his permission no doubt questions would be answered,probably by himself,but he isnt and that is the point,he has been on countless public stages talking about his hair and not once said he wasnt happy with the results.sure it looked a little ropey on holby city,but isnt there a chance it was made to look like this?also i would like to see some of our ht,s that long,not combed and under studio lights and remember at the end of the day he hasnt had that many grafts for a norwood 5/6,a thousand less than me in fact.

bottom line is shaun doesnt post on here and probably never will,so untill he does and gives us his situation from the"horses mouth"i cant see how anyone can comment either way.

[balody]

p.s give Bill a f*!cking break,every time i get drawn into one of these stupid(imo orchestrated)situations,i always have second thoughts because i know Bill is going to be the one ending up coverd in shit.but if i think something is wrong i WILL NOT hold my tongue!

[Bill - Seemiller]

Balody,

 

I appreciate your support but I believe Notgoing2gobald and thanatopsis_awry have legitimate concerns and questions without agenda and therefore I do not mind addressing them publicly.

 

We also have to remember that it is normal and natural to form an opinion and not everyone is going to agree on an issue. Sometimes people just have to agree to disagree.

 

I will continue however, to form opinions based on sound evidence and not third party speculation. We have a great group of dedicated members who are also commited to forming opinions based on sound evidence and not pure conjecture.

 

That being said, I also agree that discussion about Barry is all speculative since the patient himself has not come forward to express his concerns. Only with patient consent can the Farjo clinic even reveal ALL the details of the surgery. After all, this forum is about patient rights is it not?

 

Onwards and Upwards,

 

Bill

[balody]

hear what your saying Bill,that wasnt aimed directly at than or ng2gb. imo they are two of the "good guys"

[balody]

and also for the record thana,the links frog posted were to a picture of shaun looking imo 4 months post op(no way of knowing).

the fue arguement between richie and mick.

and a poster with bad scarring named bennyblanco who had indeed been to farjo,but also had been to 3 other uk clinics for surgery dating back to 1996.unfortunatly frog chose not to mention this.

when frog or others do this sort of thing they rely on you just fleecing over the links quickly and not going into it properly that way they hope "mud sticks".

always read between the lines and the truth will out.

[Pat - Community Publisher]

I think the open discussion we are having in this topic as fellow hair loss sufferers who want to preserve the open, transparent and accountable nature of this forum is very healthy. I know that everyone who has posted has a sincere interest in seeing this community remain a counter balance to commercial hype.

 

I know that all who have posted on this topic are not only adults but well informed and can and should ultimately make their own decisions.

 

Over the years I have only removed posters and posts in extreme situations when I felt the poster or posts were clearly deceptive or unfairly malicious.

 

I believe that the Farjos are currently being unfairly maligned by a small and vocal handful of posters who simply refuse to acknowledge the high quality of the Farjos current ultra refined work.

 

In the interest of seeing the reality of the Farjo real work and results I flew to England last year and spent two days in surgery with the Farjos and their staff ( see highlights and photos ). It is my firm belief that their skills, experience and technique are on pare with some of the very best clinics in North America, who I have also visited.

 

I believe that Frog and certain others have an agenda to discredit the Farjos and ignore evidence to the contrary, while using questionable photos of a TV celebrity, Shaun Williamson, to hammer away at them.

 

But at some point enabling such a malicious and defaming agenda to reach an audience of new visitors to our site who do not know the full history is simply not fair to the Farjos and to potential patients in the UK.

 

The openness and tolerance of this community can not be exploited by those with unfair agendas.

 

I believe that Bill made every effort to be tolerant but ultimately could not continue to provide an open venue for unfair attacks.

 

I did discuss this with Bill and I approved the removal of Frog and the topic which he had once again turned into, what in my opinion, was yet another unfair attack upon the Farjos.

 

I'm pleased to say that the number of posters who have been removed from this forum over the past couple of years can be counted on one hand. I'm committed to keeping this forum as open as possible because I trust that our adult members can ultimately make their own determinations during any controversy. But those who would use our forum for covert marketing, or libel and defamation will not be enabled.

 

I appreciate everyones input and understanding.

 

Pat

[thanatopsis_awry]

Thanks (to everyone) for the well-reasoned replies -- appreciated!

[Mick from Farjo]

You know I find this quite funny, does anyone really think that if Shaun's hair had fallen out he would continue his open endorsement of us and continue to allow us to show his true image on our website. A while ago I might have been a bit riled about this but due to the fact that I know that when you are out there, you are there to be shot at, I take it all with a pinch of salt. If it wasn't for the fact that Pat and Bill are so level headed, I in the past would have jumped in at the deep end. It's all about chronology really and having the correct information. Our website shows how Shaun's hair is in reality, the other picture shows him as his first transplant is growing through over three years ago and the final one is from a television programme. On this he was made to look dishevelled and his hair was part of this process, especially under bright production lights. I invite anyone who has had surgery to leave their hair unwashed for a day or two, completely mess their hair up, then show it under the brightest possible light and print a poor quality picture. What does it look like?

For the record he only had 3000 FUT in two procedures. The reason was that these operations were filmed and that due to these constraints it meant that he had two relatively small operations. Shaun is absolutely delighted with his hair and I plan to meet with him in the summer and will ask him if I can make a film showing everything at close quarters.

For some reason frog has been trying to orchestrate a movement against us, I do not know why but I suspect everything he has revealed in this forum had not been the whole truth but that like this topic it is not the point. This has started when this guy came on here asking about us. Feel free to ask him what I said when he initially e mailed us. I asked him to shop the market place, to not let geography be a limiting factor. To meet the actual surgeon for the consultation and post his details to doctors worldwide and ensure that he sees live patients as examples of what is achievable. He was fortunate to find this site but if I had seen the depth of dare I say hatred spewed out by frog I probably would feel puzzled as to why, especially as he is not a patient of ours and claims never to have visited us.

I have made this point previously but will do so again, we produce quality surgery using all the latest techniques, as do several other clinics in Europe. This has been confirmed by Pat and Bill and every month over the past 9 months I have been showing our work, both finished and in progress. Due to other commitments outside work I cannot come on here as often as I like but we do not use this site as some do who heavily promote their business via the internet. All consultations that are suitable for surgery are invited to speak/meet several of our patients. Like many others, we have certainly evolved over the past few years. Remember we have treated thousands of patients over this time and despite our best efforts we accept we cannot please every single person. This is the same with all clinics and doctors.

We continue our association with HTN because we believe in the site and its publishers believe in us. There are some good people on here willing to share their knowledge, for the benefit of the fellow hair loss sufferer. It is right that questions be asked but part of the problem is the anonymity of the questioner and all the facts that are often not possible to be presented or sometimes presented in a twisted way. There are lots of great hair clinics out there and if potential patients do the correct homework and with the help of HTN they should make the right choices.

 

Mick