doctor Limmer and the mega sessions

[MrJobi]

Hi

 

Thanks Anouar for the information.. This is an objective answer from a former customer of a doctor.. As i stated earlier, it doesn't matter how much money Pat makes or whatever, this feedback came directly from the source..

 

This is what this site is all about!!!

[sanjayahair]

Hello Anouar. Thank you for your information of your surgery with the doctor Limmer. I am from Dallas. Im just learning if the doctor is good and Im nervous about the result. He is in the list of the recomended doctors here so I thougt he was good for sure. I will dout that I will be going to see the doctor Limmer because he look like he is having more and more problem with his ethical stuff and his surgery. I am still not in the full understanding but I am happy that the internet makes the information more useful. Thank you.

[sanjayahair]

And I want to say that if the doctor is not good that maybe the recomended should not be provided here. Thank you.

[something]

guys, are you not reading what i am reading. when someone writes about having 1000grafts 8 years ago, how can you draw conclusions without anything else to go by.

 

dont forget that this dr is part of the coalition...and Pat wrote a glowing review about there clinic when he visited them just some time ago....

 

this is a free market, and people have the right to be affliated with other websites, and also, to create other forums. people will ultimately decide the validity of it, but let that happen naturally.

 

the only person that should have an issue with it is PAT, who becuase of his livelyhood(making money from this site) has to be concerned with competition, and its effect on his pocket. i am not saying that this is wrong, but this isnt an altrustic website for the benefit of manking, come on now, some common sense please.

 

this is mob mentality here period. sanjayahair, Dr Limmer is highly respected. should it matter to you what his affliation with another website forum has to do with a hair transplant. NO.

 

Bill, i respect your positions, and i also believe that you are here to help. but i sometimes think that we are not being objective here.

[hairbank]

something-

 

Yes........a post by a brand new poster saying Dr. Limmer had poor performance is suspect in my book. Not that I doubt Anouar, but since this is the first post I would require proof via pics or other evidence that Dr. Limmer didn't deliver.

 

As for mob mentality...........explain further. If you mean when we hear of poor performance by a physician recommended here that we take action and try to determine the truth...........yes, this site takes very seriously allegations of poor performance of any recommended physician here. Would you recommend otherwise?

[something]

Hairbank-

 

I agree that we need to find the truth in matters concerning poor performance. But context is very important. To me, both good results and bad need to be verified before we make conclusions.

 

As for mob mentality, this has become a sort of cheerleading fan site, where we always root for the home team. I think that we need to take the information first, before alliances.

 

I personally didn't like the way Pat went after the new site and there Drs.. This too me was agenda oriented. The other site has been up for a while, but the mission to destroy it was distasteful. I mean, this is not the end all to be all in HT forums, and shouldnt be.

 

And really, why would Pat force other Drs. of that site? It really makes me wonder. Aside from that, i really have no problems with anybody here. I think that most of the regular posters are good guys who mean to help, including yourself, but why is it always us against them. Coalition Drs against everyone else.

 

In the end, this is all a form of advertisment under a more noble viel. I mean, do you really think that the word "ultra refined grafts" mean much besides marketing.

[sanjayahair]

To something. Thank you for the intersting view on this information. I think that what happens is because when there is alot money to be involved in that the site want keep the competitions from getting the money.

 

It is very sad that I cant get the information like about a good doctor because the money it getting in the way. I am so confused now because the doctor Limmer has a recomendation on the site owner but the people dont like the doctor or something because he want to make the money. But it seem the site here want to make the money too but has a problem with the doctor to make the money.

 

Now I suddenley see that the site is not really giving the right information about the doctors and maybe only the other information part will be useful like the pictures. I am not sure of being afraid of the doctors and it is hard to find a good one. Thank you.

[something]

sanjayahair--

 

Sorry, you came asking for questions at the wrong time. but really, there are many good people on this site with lots of good information.

 

I hope that you do your research, but also go to the Drs. that are on your list, and look at both patient results and photos. This will help you make a really informed discussion.

[Anouar]

You guys can draw what ever conclusions about Limmer you want. I'm only giving you a description of my experiance take it however you want. I uderstand that some of you might be sceptical about what I say especially since this my first post. I typically read alot and never have posted. When I saw the name Limmer mentioned, I figured I could chime in since I have first hand experiance. I can't say anything concerning Limmer's politics as I really don't know what his affiliations are and I'm not sure I care. As far as pictures are concerned, I really don't have any pre op pics available. If there is any other proof that you'd like me to provide so that I can be more credible in your eyes let me know. One thing that I remember was that he used dissovle sutures on me. I don't know If that is still the case.

[something]

Anouar, i am not saying that i dont believe your experience, i am just coupling it with the fact that it was 1000G 8 years ago. I dont know about Limmer specifically, but the industry has changed dramatically between then and now.

 

So, im just saying that context is important.

[Anouar]

Something, I went to Limmer based on the recommendation of Spencer Kobren. Limmer is supposed to be the father of the gold standard of transplants. Like I said I didn't get butchered. No plugs. It's the experiance of of the pain I felt when they were actually using the foreseps to implant the hairs. At one point, the pain got so bad, I screamed out an obsanity to my surprise. When I was done I actually drove home with the worst migrane that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. On a postive note, I think that my donor scar is pretty good. As far as yied is concerned, maybe I shouldn't of expected so much from a 1000g. But back then I had no clue. Let's just say that If I get another transplant, I'm doing a megassession. Nobody should go through this kind of pain for a 1000g.

[rp1979]

Hi everyone,

 

I hear that name floating around a lot in the HT circle. Who exactly is Spencer Kobren? And what relation does he have with the recommended doctors and HTN? THanks.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Bill, i respect your positions, and i also believe that you are here to help. but i sometimes think that we are not being objective here.

 

Unless you are pointing out hard coded facts, views by nature are subjective. So I have no problem with you stating that I can be subjective. The very nature of this argument is subjective. When it comes to presentation of facts, I am objective. When I share my passions and views, I am being subjective.

 

I support this site and what it stands for because I believe in helping fellow hairloss suffererers. If that means plucking a few weeds here and there, I'm all for it.

 

The explanation for my subjective view:

 

The other site was run by doctors intending to promote themselves. Doctors can not be objective about their own work, only patients can. By default this means that anything posted that put these sponsored doctors in a negative light would be removed, hence sensorship. I disagree with that.

 

As proof to this, all posts of mine, Hairbank, and Pat's have been removed once he saw them because they were not in his best interest, regardless of what might have been best for the patient community seeking advice.

 

Regarding "agendas"...does Pat have an agenda? Hairbank already stated...absolutely...it's to help fellow hairloss sufferers. Does he get paid for the work he does? Absolutely. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not.

 

Consider what you do for a living? Would you like someone to question your integrity because you get paid? Would you like to work full time for free?

 

Anyway...these are my views...love them or hate them....they are subjective based on objective truths, and that's ok. My views are my own.

 

Anouar,

 

Welcome to our community. I hope you'll take the time to post your experience in detail, number of grafts you received, date of surgery, etc. and post some before/after pictures of your experience in a new thread. I have no reason to question you, not at this point anyway...so I hope you'll share with us.

 

Bill

[MrJobi]

Hi

 

If we look at the facts, it seems Bill is correct in making his statements. Once cannot say someone is being non objective and then not state an accurate argument.. The whole "getting paid" comment is such a poor excuse for an argument as we all get paid for our jobs.. Again, that does not mean we cannot be objective.. Again, Pat does not post the threads, the patients do and we do not get paid.. If someone wants to view this forum in a negative light we cannot prevent them .. However, I'm sure they lean towards a pesimistic view on life as this website have helped hundreds of people like me based on documented accounts ( and pics) of satisfied cases..

 

If a doc is soo great, where are his happy patients???

[hairbank]

something-

 

I think we agree about ALL information needing verification. Anyone can make a claim but they must be prepared to back it up.

 

As for the other site..........I don't think it had been up for long before it was mentioned to posters here. The reason I was alarmed about it was that Dr. Goertz, who administrates the site, hasn't got a solid rep as a HT surgeon as evidenced by a pic of his worked posted here as other information I've obtained away from this site. So, I was really alarmed that a marginal HT physician (IMO) would be in charge of controlling/directing information given to prospective HT patients. Seems the info would be tainted, don't you think?

 

I don't really feel this site is involved in cheerleading in any way shape or form. I try my best to provide objective advice. If I see a marginal HT from one of the Coalition Surgeons, I respectfully tell the recipient of the HT what I think of their work.........fortunately that doesn't happen to often with quality Docs but it does happen.

 

Anouar- After reading this thread again, I reviewed your post about your experience with Dr. Limmer. It sounds like you were more dissatisfied with the pain you experienced rather than the procedure itself, correct? That sucks, but if the work ended up looking good I suppose that's the main thing. Another point, 1000 grafts 8 years ago was very average for session size. If your donor scar is good, which you've mentioned it is, it doesn't sound like a bad HT job though no one likes to be in that kind of pain.

[Anouar]

Bill, I don't know how detailed you want me to be. What exactly do you want me to tell you? You know how many grafts I got. I told you it was 8 years ago. As for the exact date, I can't be sure. I told you of the pain I endured and the lack of at tentativeness by the doctor that is my only real complaint. As far as yield is concerned maybe I was a bit too idealist in thinking that there would be some cosmetic difference. You have to understand, at that particular time I wasn't thinking about sharing my experience with anyone let alone posting my pics on the forum. I thought at the time, I was making the right decision. I thought everything was well researched. But reflecting back at the moment, I was very na????ve and I'm glad I didn't get butchered. At present, I have taken some pics for consultation purposes as I'm considering going under the knife again. I would be glad to post these pics but there are no comparative pics other than older pics in a natural setting. I realized that Pat went so seem Limmer and had a lot of good things to say about the man but I don't think this would replace true experience of someone sitting at the operating table. I'm sure you understand that doctors would have put on a good show should someone want to come over and inspect the overall procedure that doesn't mean that's what occurs on a daily basis. The visit was expected so everybody is at there best behavior. This is not like any industry that goes through scheduled inspections. The Doc knows, If Pat sees something out of regularity, he will le the forum readers know.

[hairbank]

Anouar-

 

Did you read my last post? Your procedure was 8 years ago and technology has improved. The fact that the "quality" of your HT was good (growth and scar) speaks well of the Doc. The pain aspect isn't good but something you can deal with, don't you think?

[Anouar]

Hairbank, it's not about the technology. Limmer back then was considered in the forefront of hair transplants. He wasn't doing plugs back then. So how much has he changed? And what is this new technology you are talking about. Does he have more potent injections to deal with the pain? Does he have better yield instruments? Is he more involved in the procedure? Does he do mega sessions? If you are saying that he is good compared to the fact that I could've been butchered then you would be correct in this regard. But please do expand on the technology. I'll tell you what I live about 20 minutes away from the doc and I would not go back there again simply based on the care I received.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Anouar,

 

I am sorry to hear about your bad experience. I surely don't want anything I say or anything anyone else says to discount that.

 

You are right...personal experience speaks much more highly (or lowly) sometimes than what any forum can tell you. I'm sure if I were you, being dissatisfied, I would not go back to Dr. Limmer again either.

 

Thanks for some of the detail you provided. Obviously, we know you don't have comparitive pictures, but if you are willing to post the photos of you now (the ones you are going to send for additional consultations), that would be great.

 

Hairbank is correct, however. Whereas I don't have much to go on personally speaking about Dr. Limmer (haven't seen much of his work recently), technology and techniques have changed in the last 8 years for sure. In fact, there have been advancements since I went under the knife for the first time in 2004 which was only 3 years ago.

 

Who are you considering now for a transplant? Which doctors have you or are you going to consult with?

 

Bill

[hairbank]

Anouar-

 

By technology improving I'm talking about:

 

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>smaller blades for ultra-fine incisions<LI>directional incisions and graft placement so hair growth pattern matches old native hair growth pattern<LI>true dense packing of grafts to provide the illusion of density<LI>trichopytic donor closure to allow hair to grow through the scar<LI>mega sessions of as many as 7000 or more grafts in one session

 

The pain you experienced doesn't sound like any fun..............some people tolerate it better than others so it's hard to say how bad it was. The fact that you felt an incision means maybe they didn't use enough of the anesthetic? Dr. Limmer's clinic has a good reputation with respect to the quality of work.........I'm not sure they are into the mega sessions of today and can't speak as to whether than can do more than 2500-3000 grafts at one time. To me, this is something you find out when you consult. Quality of work is really number one in my book.

 

The nice thing is that, even though you're close to Dr. Limmer's clinic, there are plenty of quality Docs to choose from. And, many will cover your airfare and hotel if you go to them making the travel more palatable.

 

Hope this helps you understand where I'm coming from, my friend.

[Anouar]

Hairbank, thank you for the info. All I can tell you is my experience with the doc. Maybe he has improved his methods. What I have a problem with is the lack of involvement in the actual procedure maybe that has changed. The pain I endured was real. You know so many people compare it with going to the dentist. I thought this also before the procedure as so many people commented on the lack of pain. I compare it to going to a dentist in a remote village without the proper sedatives to make you feel at ease. I also thought for a while that maybe I don't have a high threshold for pain. Years after the operation I was playing football, I shattered the bone in my index finger. I stayed in the game and tapped my fingers. I actually went two months before I decided to go to the doctor only because my finger was taking the shape of Mr. Hook.

 

Bill, I've done online consults with Hasson&Wong, Armani, Cole and Arvind in India. I have since eliminated Arvind because of certain controversy surrounding him. I'm having a hard time posting pics. Can someone help? It keeps telling me that I've exceeded capacity.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Anouar,

 

If you need help posting pictures, feel free to PM me. However, you can go to "New" and choose "Photo Album" at the top left hand corner of this forum, and it will walk you through a step by step photo upload wizard. Photos must be smaller than 3mb a piece though.

 

IMO, if you are selecting between Hasson and Wong, Armani, and Cole, I'd go with Hasson and Wong.

 

I know that could sound biased since I went there (maybe I am a little biased since I had such a great result so far )...BUT...there is some controvery around Armani and Cole as well that you'd want to spend some time researching.

 

Ultimately, I don't like how Armani does dense packing large megasessions to lower the hairlines of younger patients when hairloss is so unpredictable. IMO, he doesn't conserve the finite donor supply that we have which could be problematic for the long term benefit of the patient....not to mention his false marketing tactics regarding NONSURGICAL FUE (what is up with that?)

 

I won't get into the controversy as much about Cole...but let's just say I'm not thrilled with his marketing tactics either.

 

As I always say...don't take my word for it...do the research on your own. But use this and other forums as means to search for those names and see what you come up with.

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Normally this forum functions with little or no "politics" - thank God. The focus here is on getting optimal results for patients, as it should be.

 

But sometimes we have to fight for the freedoms that we have within this community when they are attacked by physicians who do not support the right of patients to critique physicians openly.

 

There are many other forums and online hair loss resources online - some of which are virtual duplications of the Hair Transplant Network. But I don't protest or encourage physicians not to support them.

 

The site created and owned by Dr. Goertz was a glaring exception. For a full discussion regarding this blatantly hostile site and its ultimate demise, click here.

 

Dr. Goertz, who was removed from this community due to concerns about his work, enlisted some unsuspecting physicians in an effort to create an old boys Network with the intention of undermining this community. Me and this community would have been utter fools to stand by and let this go by unanswered. We took action and put an end to this divisive and destructive site in short order.

 

I'm committed to operating this community in an open and accountable manner. That is why I openly address critical remarks like Something's rather than sweep them away. I expect participating physicians to also submit to this process ??“ even when it's uncomfortable.

 

The real prime directive of this community above politics, money, friendships etc. is helping hair loss sufferers achieve optimal results. I feel I'm very fortunate to make a good living at some thing I believe in deeply and without ethical compromise.

 

At the end of the day, I'm fortunate to have earned the highest honor of all - the respect of my fellow patients and forum members like Bill, HairBank, B Spot, Mrjb and other members who know the real truth about how and why this community functions.

 

The bottom line is RESULTS. Therefore despite Dr. Limmer's mistaken decision to promote Dr. Goertz's site, (which Dr. Limmer claimed to me on the phone yesterday that he did not realize would attack patient based communities) his clinic should ultimately be judged based on its patients final results.

 

The Limmer clinic has consistently garnered good patient reviews on this forum over five plus years (use the "Find" feature on this forum to search for Limmer to read all posts). I was also impressed by the refined and minimally invasive nature of their grafting when I visited their clinic two months ago, click here to view the highlights and photos).

 

Apparently Anouar's surgical experience eight years ago was unnecessarily painful and the small number of grafts (1,000) produced very little improvement (see his current photos). His comments, along with dozens of other patient comments regarding Drs. Limmers, will be available to all potential patients who search this forum. These patients, like sanjayahair weigh the evidence and ultimately make their own decision.

 

sanjayahair, The members of this community have given you their honest and well reasoned opinions. But ultimately you have to do your own research and thinking. In my opinion, the Limmer clinic provides excellent results that far exceed their website publishing sense.

 

I suggest that as a new member you look past the current politics and focus on selecting the physician whose results impress you most.

 

Best wishes, Pat

[Bill - Seemiller]

Pat,

 

Thanks for the detailed update on Dr. Limmer. Shall we assume therefore that is will no longer be affiliated with that site?

 

If the "ethical" question of Dr. Limmer is out the window, then I am glad to hear it and have no problem evaluating Dr. Limmer based on results alone. It is both ethics and results, to me, that make a good physician. I'm personally glad to hear that Dr. Limmer has recanted from that website.

 

If there are any changes, please keep us posted.

 

Now...back to what this community is about...helping fellow hair loss sufferers

 

Bill

[hairbank]

Anouar-

 

I'd have to agree with Bill in that of the Doc's you mentioned, Hasson and Wong are the real gem.

 

I believe Dr. Armani to be very skilled from the results I see, but he seems to attract those who want to replicate their youthful hairline and match the density which just isn't wise as you may run out of donor hair this way and not have enough if you continue with loss as you age.

 

There has been much controversy regarding Dr. Cole on this site and another I frequent. Too much for me to recommend him.

 

IMO, Hasson and Wong ALWAYS seem to deliver top notch results..........no controversy, just two physicians along with a team of consultants and top-notch techs committed to great performance in hair restoration.

 

Of course since Dr. Wong did my crownwork from HT #2 maybe I'm a little biased..........but the evidence speaks for itself!!